tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post4638710333635905547..comments2024-03-25T09:03:39.020-07:00Comments on The Uncrushable Jersey Dress: Hilltop Tryst--Discussion ThreadBetty Debbiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16446092401692468002noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-43207197876166582362012-12-11T15:17:47.652-08:002012-12-11T15:17:47.652-08:00Ditto the second paragraph above. My three faves!...Ditto the second paragraph above. My three faves!<br /><br />Betty AnoninTXAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-65953656237285419732012-12-11T06:04:10.411-08:002012-12-11T06:04:10.411-08:00Substitute teachers in England - and there are ple...Substitute teachers in England - and there are plenty of them - are known as supply teachers. <br /><br />Thinking of RomComs, I don't like Pretty Woman, but think Betty Neel's books are like Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan pairings - Sleepless and Seattle and You've Got Mail - as well as one of my favourites While You Were Sleeping. All very sweet and with great sexual chemistry, without being too overtly sexual.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-33351301915390845152011-04-21T06:41:50.653-07:002011-04-21T06:41:50.653-07:00Ah, Blogger ate my homework, I mean my comment.
B...Ah, Blogger ate my homework, I mean my comment.<br /><br />Betty JoDee, email me with whatever you need to settle the discussion about Blackjack & Moonlight!Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-37126024547437382422011-04-20T20:38:49.728-07:002011-04-20T20:38:49.728-07:00Betty Magdalen, I guess I was too sleep deprived a...Betty Magdalen, I guess I was too sleep deprived and exhausted to make my point clearly--it's not the prostitutes whom I judge (in fact, just the opposite), it's the institution that is glossed over (in some cases) rather than exposing it as the soul-crushing trap that it is--I just don't find the scenario appealing as a romantic plot. If your guy objectifies women to the point of using prostitutes (even if it is you), keep looking.<br /><br />I have to admit that I skipped your comment revealing a bunch of your plot of <i>Blackjack and Moonlight</i> because all I have read (hint, hint!) is the first chapter--which became a major topic of discussion at Prof. van der Herntenzoon's and my anniversary dinner date. We decided we needed more info to settle our discussion (hint, hint!).Betty JoDeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552570070311742671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-12079716404707887572011-04-19T05:17:32.668-07:002011-04-19T05:17:32.668-07:00Of course I'll read your book, Betty Magdalen....Of course I'll read your book, Betty Magdalen.Miranda Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08542553244957079317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-88997751373146269882011-04-18T20:47:45.138-07:002011-04-18T20:47:45.138-07:00Betty Miranda -- You'll read my book, won'...Betty Miranda -- You'll read my book, won't you? [insert winsome smile here]<br /><br />And yes, it's fun to work out all the permutations of England's southern coastline as euphemisms for Rosie Perez's ta-tas.Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-74591304078692407272011-04-18T19:34:17.757-07:002011-04-18T19:34:17.757-07:00Golly. What an amazing discussion. I'm not goi...Golly. What an amazing discussion. I'm not going to attempt to get into it. <br /><br />Like Betty Magdalen, I never heard of the word locum used except for a doctor. I'm trying to remember the British term for a substitute teacher but I don't think we had them. Most of my teachers were nuns and they were far too tough to need sick days. They had God on their side.Miranda Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08542553244957079317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-6085066272993321502011-04-18T19:29:32.680-07:002011-04-18T19:29:32.680-07:00P.S. Whoever came up with 'Brighton' as sh...P.S. Whoever came up with 'Brighton' as shorthand was genius. I'm wondering if we could introduce it into common slang...Keirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334172370385784966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-71343857174245910632011-04-18T19:28:25.033-07:002011-04-18T19:28:25.033-07:00No, no, I'm not a big fan of editing the unedi...No, no, I'm not a big fan of editing the uneditable. <br /><br />If I might draw a very broad analogy: This Betty is like Rosie Perez' father. (What?! Just go with it.) Sure, 'Do the Right Thing' might have been a film of searing realism and enormous social import but if it has his daughter's boobies in it than he'll take a pass. Presumably, though, he is enormously proud of his daughter even if he couldn't sit through the bit with the ta-tas. <br /><br />To sum up: So, so excited that your book is going places! (Remember us fondly from the Oscar podium...)Keirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334172370385784966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-6371816142228633502011-04-18T16:43:16.616-07:002011-04-18T16:43:16.616-07:00Betty Debbie -- I can definitely make a Kindle ver...Betty Debbie -- I can definitely make a Kindle version that has all the trips to Brighton taken out. But here's why that might dull the book just a bit.<br /><br />They say that the Brighton excursions should actually be part of the plot. I've taken that advice very much to heart. The way Elise figures she'll get rid of Jack is to set the GPS for Brighton from the outset. (He was planning to take her to a 5-star restaurant, so he's more than a little surprised.) She doesn't want to go out to dinner. What Elise figures is that every man of her acquaintance enjoys a few excursions to a seaside resort after which the relationship has pretty much run its course. (That she is, in fact, precluding any non-oceanic developments herself is something Elise is pretty oblivious about.)<br /><br />Jack wants to woo Elise, and Elise wants to "unwrap [Jack] like a Christmas present." An impasse. So, like the superior lawyers that they are, they negotiate a compromise. For every date that advances Jack's romantic cause, Elise gets to book them into a nice B&B with a view of the English Channel. (She figures her plan to make Jack go away will just take longer that way.)<br /><br />And as enjoyable as a walk past the Pavilion might be for Jack, he worries that he's not reaching Elise emotionally. Those worries, and Elise's reactions to Jack, actually come up in Brighton.<br /><br />Thus, while I can Bowdlerize a version of the book for you to read on your Kindle, there will be some poignant (and also funny) bits that you'd sadly miss. And even if you don't see Jack & Elise on the promenade, you'd know how it is they got sand between their toes.<br /><br />Plus -- and truly I know this isn't the point for any of you, and I respect VERY much your scruples about books with Brighton in them -- Jack & Elise's trips to Brighton aren't very <i>you know</i>. They're really about love and affection - whether it's there or it isn't there. (Jack keeps worrying that all he'll ever have with Elise is some holiday snaps from Brighton, so to speak.) And while Elise is enthusiastic about Brighton, we watch her fall in love not as a result of Jack's 5-star restaurant dates but because she gradually can see that Brighton isn't enough. She wants Southampton and Dover and Plymouth and Cornwall...<br /><br />It's not a very sexy book (compared to what's out there) but it's very Brightonish if you see what I mean. (Plus, where would I draw the line? Before the car crosses the municipal border of Brighton? Or before they check into their B&B? Or -- well, you get the idea. I can delete those activities and situations that we know can only take place in Brighton, but I worry you'd still be uncomfortable when the next scene has one or the other one thinking about Brighton. It's all a long slippery slope...)Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-6560899001836378952011-04-18T14:19:42.987-07:002011-04-18T14:19:42.987-07:00Betty Magdalen,
Congratulations on your book! I ...Betty Magdalen,<br /><br />Congratulations on your book! I wonder if the low scoring judge had had a bad experience with the judicial system in the past and couldn't see past it.<br /><br />Betty Debbie<br /><br />p.s. maybe you could make a Betty appropriate version available (like Keira watching PW on cable..) or maybe a Betty's Guide, wherein we're told which pages are most Brightonish.Betty Debbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16446092401692468002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-52563836548696863152011-04-18T13:03:51.468-07:002011-04-18T13:03:51.468-07:00Betty JoDee -- I apologize for being hard-arsed ab...Betty JoDee -- I apologize for being hard-arsed about this, but you said "Hooker with a heart of gold" <b>plots</b> and very few of the stock characters in that wiki list (here's the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooker_with_a_heart_of_gold" rel="nofollow">list as a link</a>) has the plot hanging on her being a pro.<br /><br />On the other hand, I will agree the Melanie Griffith in <i>Milk Money</i> is a particularly distasteful example, so you score points there. (Poor Ed Harris, that's all I can say.)<br /><br />Look, I don't disagree that if prostitution is the worst thing ever, then it just is and an otherwise quite delightful movie like <i>Pretty Woman</i> is ruined for you. And that's going to be true even after factoring in the WWJD notion that it would be better if we judged ourselves before judging a woman who sells her body for money. Someone watching that movie either sees Vivian as a bright but unfocused young woman with poor self-esteem, or as a woman with no moral code.<br /><br />Which reminds me to share with you all a funny story that isn't about <i>Pretty Woman</i>. I'm working on a romance about a judge, Jack, who walks out into his courtroom, takes one look at a lawyer and falls in love. Unfortunately for him, he has to recuse himself (the rules say he can't hear a case when he has feelings for one of the lawyers) and even more unfortunately, he's required by the rules to state his reasons for recusing himself. Which puts his efforts to woo the lawyer, Elise, rather at a disadvantage. <br /><br />It's called <b>Blackjack & Moonlight</b>. And they go to Brighton, so no Bettys are required to read it.<br /><br />Anyway, I entered the first 35 pages in a contest and I'm a finalist! Whoo-hoo! Here's the funny part. Four people judged it. One gave me a 94 (out of 100), one a 95, the third gave me 100 (!), and the fourth 58.<br /><br />Yup, 58 points. She hated everything. And I think it all started with Jack. She couldn't believe that a judge a) had feelings, b) could get nervous, c) could fall in love, or d) do anything other than abuse his power. And, since she didn't like Jack, she couldn't stand Elise for even being attracted to Jack (which she is, which then annoys her until she figures out a way to make him go away). Jack's efforts to uh, <i>persuade</i> Elise to go out with him were, in this judge's eyes, stalking! And when Jack gets frustrated with Elise, the contest judge felt Elise should be frightened of him.<br /><br />Needless to say, the other contest judges had a completely different reaction to Jack. Luckily for me, the lowest score was tossed out.<br /><br />But it made me aware of how our reactions to books, movies, people, etc., can rely on some fundamental premise. If you believe that Jack is a Bad Man, then everything he does is creepy and scary and it won't work as a romance. If you believe that Vivian is taking the easy route by hooking, then everything that follows is distasteful and it won't work as a romance.Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-38367932911340749202011-04-18T07:21:05.217-07:002011-04-18T07:21:05.217-07:00Okay, my last PW comment: I'm glad I'm not...Okay, my last PW comment: I'm glad I'm not the only ones who isn't sure about Richard Gere. He's icky but, as Betty Magdalen says (and I whole-heartedly agree with), he's not so icky that it spoils the movie (and anyway, he's supposed to be a bit icky--he's the type of man who just propositioned a street walker and wants to pass her off to his 'friends').<br /><br />And this 'Hooker with a heart of gold' trope doesn't fuss me much. (Or rather, I should say, it doesn't fuss me every time.) I have hard and fast rules about explicitness (it's always going to sour me on a book) but, depending on the author and the approach (and the book), I can approve (within that book) a number of scenarios that I would never approve of in real life--in the land of Neels these would be things like:<br />Sacrificing your life for a cruel mother.<br />Sacrificing your life to drag house pets around England.<br />Not leaving home and gaining marketable skills.<br /><br />(Which is why,perhaps, we get so frustrated with one another when we're hashing out the 'logic' of a book--it's a complex calculus for me to approve actions in one and not the same actions in another...)Keirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334172370385784966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-33139724208365572822011-04-18T06:06:02.971-07:002011-04-18T06:06:02.971-07:00I agree that Hector Elizondo was responsible (with...I agree that Hector Elizondo was responsible (with Elinor--yeah!!!) for the external makeover (and some internal bolstering)--and that Vivien did the heavy lifting for her transformation/growth.<br /><br />I refuse to concede that dating schmucks is worse than being a street (or any other kind of) prostitute. Stop dating schmucks then. I certainly agree that prostitutes with hearts of gold exist; however, I don't find them compelling <i>romantic</i> plots and view them as <i>male</i> pathetic fantasy fiction. While <i>Pretty Woman</i> is seductive while viewing, ultimately I find it sours with reflection.<br /><br />Can I still come swimming, Betty Magdalen?Betty JoDeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552570070311742671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-34312466998243073902011-04-18T05:52:27.353-07:002011-04-18T05:52:27.353-07:00Darn, this is why I should have been paying attent...Darn, this is why I should have been paying attention in Betty Magdalen's Hyperlink Class. A sampling of Hooker with a Heart o' Gold stories:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooker_with_a_heart_of_gold.<br />They left off Miss Kitty in <i>Gunsmoke</i>.<br /><br />Betty Magdalen, I'm glad you'll be able to attend your own gala....Betty JoDeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552570070311742671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-51900599894315240362011-04-17T21:47:41.053-07:002011-04-17T21:47:41.053-07:00I hated Richard Gere too, Betty JoDee, but I love ...I hated Richard Gere too, Betty JoDee, but I love the movie enough to make an exception just this once. <br /><br />What I hated, back in 1990 when the movie came out, were knee-jerk assumptions about how it was a Pygmalion story. Edward doesn't make Vivian over -- Hector Elizondo's hotel manager does (with that lovely cameo by Elinor Donahue as the saleswoman he sends Vivian to -- that's the same actress that played the older sister on Father Knows Best). The rest of the work she does herself.<br /><br />And I don't get this idea that the world is overrun with heart of gold prostitute plots? Where are the others? La Traviata? (Which the movie winks at -- that's the opera Edward flies her to San Francisco to see.) After Verdi, I'm drawing a blank. Make a list, Betty JoDee, so I can continue to miss them.<br /><br />The movie is actually pretty comprehensive about the spectrum of possible outcomes for sex workers in Hollywood circa 1990: Vivian doesn't use drugs and hasn't entirely lost herself in moral or personal degradation. Her roommate, Kit, does use drugs and may or may not be able to leave that lifestyle. Skinny Marie dies of an overdose. <br /><br />I realize the movie isn't exactly even handed with screen time for the sordid outcomes as it is for Vivian's romance, but she does get assaulted by Stuckey, so I wouldn't say it's all designer gowns and borrowed jewelry all the time.<br /><br />And she became a prostitute after seeing that dating schmucks was worse. Meeting Edward is pure coincidence. It could have been Kit who walks over to the car -- as Kit says, "I gave him to you." -- and in that case, the movie's over in record time because Kit wouldn't have been able to effect the same transformation in Edward. <br /><br />Vivian gets where she gets because of who she is, not what she does. If there's a "Do this and you too can marry a bazillionaire" message, it's "Be a decent person who can teach a cynical SOB to care again, and you too can have a life eased by money but complicated by other stuff." It really boils down to "Be a decent person," which isn't quite the same as "sleep with men for money."<br /><br />Maybe it's just me, but I think she earns the money <b>and</b> she earns her happy ending.<br /><br />Of course you're still invited to The Founding Betty Gala. If being wrong occasionally was a bar to attendance, none of us -- me, least of all -- could come!Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-48991888862734672032011-04-17T19:47:10.499-07:002011-04-17T19:47:10.499-07:00Uh oh, don't get me started on Pretty Woman. ...Uh oh, don't get <b>me</b> started on <i>Pretty Woman</i>. (The noise you hear is Betty Magdalen ripping up my engraved invitation to The Founding Betty Gala.) I hate Heart o’Gold Prostitute plots. I hate Become a Prostitute to Meet Wealthy Guys Who Will Want to Marry You implications. And I hate Richard Gere. I do like Roy Orbison and Hector Elizondo (can I get re-invited, Great Magdalen of the Rose?).Betty JoDeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00552570070311742671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-2959027654176574752011-04-16T18:27:31.773-07:002011-04-16T18:27:31.773-07:00There needs to be a 'like' button on this ...There needs to be a 'like' button on this blog.Keirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334172370385784966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-66490125130170611632011-04-16T17:47:39.420-07:002011-04-16T17:47:39.420-07:00Oooh, I love it -- and both Edward and Vivian are ...Oooh, I love it -- and both Edward and Vivian are suspects in Stucky's murder (they both have motive!!) even as they are able to *solve* the crime because of their unique smarts, witty repartee and ability to move among many social strata.<br /><br />Wanna co-write the screenplay with me?Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-39345620886327830342011-04-16T15:43:45.410-07:002011-04-16T15:43:45.410-07:00Number four! That short, weasel-y fellow gets a s...Number four! That short, weasel-y fellow gets a shiv in the back during a polo match!Keirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334172370385784966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-967757774474997662011-04-16T15:01:20.833-07:002011-04-16T15:01:20.833-07:00Betty Keira -- I missed that idea. It's so cy...Betty Keira -- I missed that idea. It's so cynical, and kind of upsetting. And very much the product of some very jaded MALE imaginations. Any woman who loved <i>Pretty Woman</i> in the first instance would know better than to think Edward would go into politics -- which is a moral degradation worse than where he'd been as a businessman. Who do they think he is, Donald Trump?<br /><br />If they'd stayed true to the HEA of the first movie, they'd have had to make it one of the following:<br /><br />1) A variation on Father of the Bride -- Edward & Vivian have teenagers growing up with damaged-but-wiser parents, a lot of money, and some baggage. How do they protect the kids but also keep them from growing up spoiled & bratty?<br /><br />2) A variation on some disease-of-the-week plot, as they have their wonderful life rocked by cancer/infertility/Parkinson's etc.<br /><br />3) A crusade movie, where Edward's efforts to warn against the mortgage crisis failed and now he's reviled as the bad guy who let the crisis happen. Or Vivian's efforts to support a charity backfire when some disaster happens and she's left holding the bag.<br /><br />4) Remakes of The Thin Man movies, where Edward and Vivian inadvertently find themselves solving a murder in their social set.<br /><br />I'm not sure all the fans of the original movie would go for any of those, but I like #4 myself...Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-54678437829370704962011-04-16T13:25:32.110-07:002011-04-16T13:25:32.110-07:00I'm trying to remember the plot of a proposed ...I'm trying to remember the plot of a proposed sequel (that I'm so happy wasn't made). Edward wants to go into politics and the previous employment history of his wife is an issue. Antics ensue. It's an HEA better left to the imagination.Keirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12334172370385784966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-17838523379020404932011-04-16T09:31:33.241-07:002011-04-16T09:31:33.241-07:00Betty Barbara here--
Betty Magdalen--Thank you for...Betty Barbara here--<br />Betty Magdalen--Thank you for articulating (much better than I ever could)what is so cool about <i>Pretty Woman</i>. I always looked on it as a movie that was just as much about <b>his</b> problems and growth as it was about the romance.<br />I always thought they'd do just fine in their HEA.<br />It's not a movie that's in my top ten, but I do enjoy it.Barb in Marylandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374278685536530837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-44360860454300603362011-04-16T04:09:04.630-07:002011-04-16T04:09:04.630-07:00Betty Caitlin -- It's an interesting question ...Betty Caitlin -- It's an interesting question of how Edward & Vivian's relationship would go post-HEA. <br /><br />Yes, I can well imagine a fight including his saying, "When I met you, you were a hooker on Hollywood Boulevard," but then her line is going to be, "Yeah? So what -- you were [crude term for Brightonish activity] business rivals for money. Are you so sure you want to go toe to toe on which one of us was more of a whore?"<br /><br />And Vivian always struck me as the kind of person who learned fast and assimilated well. She was young -- 22 in the movie? -- so she would probably have gone to school on his dime and then either picked a career, or more likely worked for a cause.<br /><br />I always saw her as the stronger person, at her core. He's the one with growing up to do.Magdalenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11551590278859598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-931981138747432610.post-12801835535388496122011-04-16T03:21:08.665-07:002011-04-16T03:21:08.665-07:00Look up Haing S. Noor's story. It is quite tr...Look up Haing S. Noor's story. It is quite tragic. He was actually a doctor in Cambodia but had to hide that fact when the Khmer Rouge took over. He and his wife were put into a concentration camp, where she died in childbirth. He never remarried and was eventually murdered in the US.<br /><br />As for Pretty Woman, I have to admit that I liked it (Julia Roberts really did make the movie for me) but I can't really believe that post limo-"rescue" there will ever be true equality in that relationship. The power imbalance seems insurmountable to me. Hugely disparate education levels, backgrounds, economic positions. And then you're supposed to believe that he's never going to throw the fact that she was a hooker back at her during a fight! I suppose the trick to these movies is to stop thinking about what happens immediately after the end.<br /><br />I had less of a problem with the Wedding Date because he was so cute that I may not have been paying too much attention to the dialogue.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604612970156243425noreply@blogger.com